America Has Spoken

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16 Responses

  1. Jon says:

    One of the greatest things about America is that if you don’t like it, you can leave :).

  2. Jonathan says:

    Agreed, and I’ve used that same line before. America is still the greatest country in the world, but it is going downhill fast. For instance, I still have the right to speak out against my government should I choose to do so. Soon I may not have that same right.

    Something else I should have said in my original post, but neglected to is this – I’ll say with confidence that anyone who knows what the founding fathers of America stood for, and values those ideals, did NOT vote for Obama. It is truly simple – Obama stands against everything the founding fathers stood for. This simply shows how far gone America really is.

    I stand by my comments unashamedly and unapologetically.

  3. Jon says:

    One thing that I’ve often wondered (history class may have failed me in this dept), but why do we hold so close rights that were added as amendments, and not written in by the founding fathers?

  4. Jonathan says:

    Before I answer your question, here’s the relevant history in a nutshell.

    The US Bill of Rights was brought into effect in 1791, about 15 years after the Declaration of Independence was signed, and 4 years after the US Constitution was adopted. These were among the very first legal documents that established the form of government that we have today. Without researching it thoroughly and getting a list of all of the names of those involved with each document, I’ll stray out on a limb all by myself and say that that most of the same men were involved with all 3 of these documents.

    The Bill of Rights was added as a series of amendments later on due to some controversy (Federalists vs. Anti-Federalists) about whether the Constitution restricted those rights, or left them alone altogether. This is where the 9th Amendment comes in:

    “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”

    Basically it means that the list isn’t necessarily all-inclusive, and any of them not listed are not restricted.

    The tone behind the Bill of Rights is one that the rights mentioned have always existed, and are protected by these amendments rather than granted by them. This ‘precedent’ (for lack of a better word) was set forth in the Declaration of Independence: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed . . .”

    So to answer your question, this is why I hold these rights so close. Not because my government grants them – God granted them, and the writers of these great historical documents recognized that. The government is only supposed to protect them.

  5. Rachel says:

    So who did you vote for?

  6. Jon says:

    Unfortunately, the Declaration of Independence isn’t law, its just a Declaration.

    I feel that I should also follow up that comment with, I fly a flag at my desk at work and I’m working on getting a nice flagpole up at home :).

  7. Jonathan says:

    I realize the Declaration isn’t law. But you can’t ignore it when you look for the tone that the writers of the Bill of Rights had – again, mostly the same writers/signers of the Declaration.

    In other words, rights aren’t ‘granted’ to a truly free people. They can’t be if they’re already free. Consider the text of the first two amendments:

    * First Amendment – Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly; right to petition

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    * Second Amendment – Right to keep and bear arms.

    A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    No laws will be made that infringe or abridge our rights. If the amendments granted those rights, the wording would be entirely different.

  8. Brad says:

    Separation of Church and State. Not everyone believes that electing a President has anything to do with God. Also, not everyone believes in God. I find it so funny that people can’t keep religion to themselves and that those who do believe in something blindly think that everyone believes in the same thing… This is a VERY diverse county, not only race but religious beliefs as well.

  9. Jonathan says:

    Have you actually researched the history of separation of church and state? 🙂

  10. Brad says:

    Remove my first sentence and the rest of my comment still stands… You said that America has turned away from God but I think that is a very close minded view because not all of America believes the same as you.

  11. Jon says:

    Yes, and I don’t like what I’ve researched. Much of the US’s past is pretty sad.

    BTW, is this what is meant by the second amendment? http://flickr.com/photos/jcn/110271152/

    My thought on keeping guns… MAKE A MILITIA. The second amendment was intended for just that, not for stockpiling weapons, armed robbery, personal protection, etc. I do keep a gun for personal protection btw, but I don’t believe that was the intent of the amendment.

    …and about the Declaration, yes, it is ignored and has been since it was initially written. The pursuit of happiness part especially… :(. Taxes, government, etc are a necessary evil of large groups of “free” people. My opinion, somewhat.

  12. Jonathan says:

    To Brad, we’ll ignore that first part for now then. For the rest of your post, I don’t believe blindly, and I realize that not everyone believes the same way that I do. If being sure of what I believe makes me closed-minded, then so be it. However, I do accept others’ views and religious beliefs as their own. I choose not to believe that way because I know what God has done in my life and in my heart. As a result, my religion and my beliefs do, necessarily, play a part in my political opinions.

    To Jon, it is America’s past that has made it as strong a nation as it is today. If our forefathers hadn’t stood up for what they believed in, we would still be under Britain’s rule, hardly free.

    And, what part of “the right of the -people- to keep and bear arms” doesn’t make sense? If we want to look at the entirety of the amendment, the militia, in context of the same amendment, was there to keep the government from infringing on our rights.

    And I’ll say again, that the 2nd Amendment isn’t there to provide for a militia, or anything of the sort in the first place. It is there to protect -existing- rights. That’s also where the 9th Amendment comes in again, which I’ve already provided the text for in a previous comment. Other rights not mentioned in the Bill of Rights are protected as well.

    Going back to the Declaration of Independence, which again I understand is not law, but does still set the tone for the Bill of Rights, we have the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. If I have the right to life, I certainly have the right to defend it.

  13. Jon says:

    Using the Bill of Rights or Declaration of Independence to make assumptions isn’t how I make decisions.

  14. Jonathan says:

    What are you assuming that I’ve assumed? 🙂 If a person understands English and grammar the documents are fairly simple to understand.

  15. Brad says:

    This conversation will never end… 🙂

    at least it’s a civil conversation.

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